Introduction
It is a great pleasure that today we are publishing the fourth episode of our talk show “Talks” and I would like to thank both our interviewee of the day and all followers of SAP Steps.
The idea of this interview program is to talk to people who are directly connected to the SAP world (Consultants, Project Managers, etc.), as well as to interview people who are on the “business” side and who have been or are going through SAP projects.
Fernando is an experienced SAP Consultant in the PP (Production Planning) module, having worked in many markets and countries.
Interview
Bruno César: Good morning Fernando, how are you? First of all, I would like to thank you for participating in our series of interviews. The purpose today is to pass on to SAP Steps readers a little of its history within the SAP market and to talk mainly about its process of moving from Brazil to Europe. Before I start talking about the main topic, would you like to ask you to talk a little about yourself, how you started in the SAP market, your main hobbies, your family, etc.?
Fernando Lima: It is already a life within SAP. I started when I finished my internship at Accenture in 2006, I was in BW support in Data Stage and Business Objects and then Braskem turned to SAP. At the time, they agreed to teach me SAP and wanted me to join the Basis team. I didn’t even know what it was until I asked my manager Jose Geraldo if there was an area not so technical. Until then they told me to go to QM (without even knowing what it was).
So I started with the QM support that was still stabilizing and at that time I was working with Claudia Silva and Andre Dedding. Andre was the one who had the greatest patience in the whole world and explained everything to me, detail by detail and 95% of what I know about QM, I learned in the first year of SAP with him. I can say that the 95% he taught me is practically 90% of the QM module. He is a master on the subject.
I am extremely grateful to Andre for all his patience and dedication at that time! Think of a good guy.
Bruno César: Going into our main topic today, I would like to start by asking you what was the main reason that influenced you to move from Brazil to Europe?
Fernando Lima: I believe it was always a dream to go abroad. And just imagining that you can do the same thing anywhere in the world, being close to where things happen, already creates a little desire.
In Brazil, we always look upwards as if the professionals from outside were from another world, with professionalism, creativity, and experience. I have always heard from other colleagues and companies that professionals from Europe and the USA were too good and so on.
And when you take a project in Brazil only with good people, who become your professional reference, both due to their professional attitude and knowledge, you start to want to be more involved in this environment.
Many of the projects that I went through as a PJ, my colleagues were more of the same, all at a similar or even lower level of knowledge than mine. At some point, you start looking for other references, because there is a desire to develop, and small projects (as they ended up becoming projects in Brazil), for a while you no longer add more.
When the opportunity arose to go abroad, I wasn’t even looking for it, I simply asked “Do you accept without a visa?” already expecting no. All of a sudden, things started to take shape, and when I realized I had passed the selection process.
When I was approved, I spoke with my family, and we spent some time thinking about that situation because it was a lot of change when our life was very stable.
It seemed that I was looking for a problem because life was going well and calm, but looking at my children (the oldest with only four years), we thought that if it was to start a new life that was the time.
And we decided to leave the quiet and stable life to “Fix it for the head”.
Bruno César: As I recall, your first European destination was Portugal. Why did you make that choice?
Fernando Lima: It was not a choice, it was what we had and we think it would be less impacting on the children’s lives. I thought “Well, at least my daughter will know how to ask for water and/or go to the bathroom”. I didn’t want any extreme situation for them to live, they were already losing their roots when they were still small seedlings, it’s a lot of life impact in a single moment.
Bruno César: How was this process of change? What did your family think?
Fernando Lima: I can say that the family (wife and children) was something that scared me and brought me a lot of reflection. We ended up doing everything very quickly because if we stayed another month in Brazil, I believe we would have given up (as I said earlier, life was very stable and peaceful). The family in general did not want to, to be honest, they still do not agree, they just accept. We were the basis for a lot of conflict resolution and family problems.
Bruno César: And when you arrived in Portugal, did you adapt quickly?
Fernando Lima: No, if I had gone alone as most people do, I would have returned the following month, completely sorry. But as the family came together, we knew that returning was an option, but we had to try.
When I went to my new job, all I thought about was “What nonsense I made up!”. Lisbon is not exactly what they say in Brazil, it has problems, like every city, but going straight to places where these problems are was scary.
Then other problems started, getting a house to live in, finding out that the salary I was going to receive was not quite what I understood. And that change advisory was far from what I expected.
Bruno César: And for you, what was the biggest challenge in Portugal?
Fernando Lima: By far the biggest problem in Portugal and I believe that it is a problem in most of the great centers of Europe are the values of rents. It’s hard to find a home, and wages just don’t keep up with rent. In Portugal, this can easily consume half of your net salary. In my case, it took me 20 days to find a home. It was not at the price I would like, but I lived very well for the 2 years I stayed there. Friends of mine took three months to find something.
Bruno César: After a while in Portugal, you moved to Spain (where you even live today). Why did you move there?
Fernando Lima: Portugal is a great place to “tour”. Living well is not bad, but it is also a long way from the comfort standards we had in Brazil. Portugal needs people and has opened the door for qualified and unskilled people as well. Several immigration laws close to other countries that are quite lenient. But you are simply not prepared for this. Public services are far from ideal, immigration services are taking months. Emergency medical care works well, preventive is not as fast as we expect. Security works because there is not much crime, but I started to hear more and more reports of thefts. In such cases, it is difficult to see any effectiveness.
I did not want to compare it with public services in Brazil, but comparing other countries of the European Union is far from expected.
Another point is the prejudice that exists between Portuguese and Brazilians, and at this point, I will place the least educated people or the oldest.
Portuguese people are generally very polite, but, unfortunately, you will be able to hear offenses, criticism, and suffer xenophobia.
At work, I was always very respected and they always dispensed with education and civility that I don’t find in Brazil very often. The Portuguese explained a little of this behavior to me due to the first large batch of Brazilians who went to Portugal in the 1970s and 1980s.
An example that occurred was when I was looking for a house and an apartment owner said he would not rent to a Brazilian. Even understanding that we would not do business, I politely asked the reason for such a thought and the answer I received was: “The last tenant was a Brazilian who stayed for 6 months without paying the rent, left huge bills unpaid, and took the microwaves though. “
He said that he had never been there before with other nationalities, Angolans, Mozambicans, South Africans, but with Brazilians on two occasions, he had some kind of problem.
As an owner of an apartment in Brazil, I fully understand this person who, although he is stereotyping and harming people in general, is just trying to avoid problems in his life.
Outside the office, the world is completely different, I was the victim of one of those offenses with an application driver. I delayed my arrival at the vehicle for about 3 or 4 minutes. Upon entering the vehicle I apologized for the delay and explained the reasons (even if it was not necessary).
What I heard were a series of complaints, for almost 5 minutes, when the man then uttered the following phrase “Are you coming from Brazil and are you bringing your watch with you? They are irresponsible and do not respect others ”.
Well, I was the one most interested in arriving at my destination on time, but for Europeans in general, delays longer than 5 minutes are a huge disrespect.
I didn’t report it, just by the app, due to my need not to be late for my appointment.
In Spain, I only have praise for the place of people, etc.
Bruno César: Do you feel many cultural differences between the Brazilian and European SAP market?
Fernando Lima: SAP is SAP anywhere, so there are not many differences. There are differences in people. Europe’s facilitator is that there is no such thing as “we protect the standard to the maximum” here the system is just a tool, what is expected is a working standard, even if it means adding features to the system.
In Brazil we always have the money limit, so everything has to be as standard as possible, in Europe this is also and is not a problem. Any new functionality needs a logical budget and justification for process or activity improvement, even if it is not a financial return. But as long as the need is reasonable, it will be done.
Concerning professionals, in Brazil we have much more complex scenarios, I am not just talking about the fiscal issue, and they demand that the system be robust. So in my opinion we have professionals who are infinitely better than many here in Europe.
My references are still Brazilian, I don’t know people so much better here in Europe. That was a paradigm shift for me. I often think that we have the best professionals, but the sad thing is that these professionals are not in the best places.
And I believe that lastly, it is the culture of the lock, this thing of the Brazilian market that the system has to be infallible or it will be used as a justification for an error does not exist abroad. I never heard “I did it because the system left”. I just hear, “Yeah, I was wrong to do this.”
Bruno César: And culturally, does the work environment change a lot?
Fernando Lima: The pace of work is much more relaxed, I am not saying that they are not responsible, on the contrary, to be responsible for the European is to do well and be productive. No conversation at the cafe for another 10 minutes. Nothing to do endless overtime, overtime is a lack of planning and discipline. And what struck me most was the lack of justification for mistakes made.
Brazilian explains all well-founded and unfounded reasons to justify failure, the European simply apologizes and strives to prevent the error from occurring again, as simple as that.
I was impressed in a situation in Portugal where a boss questioned an employee for inappropriate behavior. It was soon realized that the employee’s action was done with good intentions, but it caused problems due to a lack of communication.
At that moment I saw a Brazilian saying, “But is that this, or that or because of someone else …”. The Portuguese said only one “I’m sorry and it won’t happen again” and returned to his activities.
At no time was the leader in this situation disrespectful or bullying. But this behavior of not being justified and just executing was, in my view, very polite and interesting.
I think that as a Brazilian, we need to know how to apply our sympathy and recognize our faults. This culture of the poor and the fault of the other must end. Only then will we make our country go forward.
At the office, going to the colleague’s desk to tell the day or comment on the lives of others does not exist.
Arriving at someone else’s table and asking for help, only if you are sure you are not harming the other person’s activities. If not, make an appointment.
A personal conversation is also not practical, it is even frowned upon.
Conversations of random subjects and to relax there are yes and are welcome. But expect a short conversation and a “deafening” silence the next minute (remember being productive with quality?).
Meetings that lead to the conclusion that they need another meeting to exist as well. I’ve seen countless unproductive meetings, but more than anything, the goal is communication. The act of saying something to someone is the goal, not what you are going to do with the information received.
I think the great difficulty is knowing how to deal with the culture of your target audience. For some cultures, if you go too far on a subject, in the sense that you run away from the sequence of reasoning already discussing the impacts can be terrible for those who receive the information. Doing something impromptu even if it is going to have a beer at the end of the day that was not planned some time does not exist.
Others spend a lot of energy on the political side, without being objective.
So the discernment of your audience is essential on a continent with people with completely different habits, customs, and traditions.
Bruno César: Without wanting to be too invasive, I would like to ask what are your next in Europe? Are you going to stay in Spain for a long time? Or do you already have new plans?
Fernando Lima: In Portugal, I had the objective of leaving there as soon as possible, here in Spain, no. In fact, I am surprised by the place, the culture, and the people. I had the idea that I would still move to Switzerland or France. Honestly, I am very happy where I am and the family has the same feeling. Here we feel so good, and sometimes better than we felt when we were at our home.
Get out of here no longer for the first opportunity, but only if an irrefutable opportunity happens.
Bruno César: And for other people who want to move to Europe, what tips would you give?
Fernando Lima: Leaving Brazil is the first tip. Joking apart. First, I think that those who come to Europe must feel prepared (although we never are) financially and emotionally. I put the financial first for two reasons, the first your money is worth nothing, we are talking about a ratio of almost 1 to 7. If you go to Portugal don’t be surprised by people asking for 12 months’ rent in advance. Starting life in an empty apartment is a mix of emotions, happy and sad anywhere in the world, but life has to go on.
In the first few months, the money will only go, and stability will take time. Bureaucracy exists everywhere and public services are slow, do not wait for life to be resolved in 2 months.
Emotionally it is the absence of the family, forget about barbecues and photos with all the relatives. Your life is an ocean away. Each return to Brazil can be a farewell without a new hello (hardly arriving in time for awake). Be prepared to be alone.
Bruno César: Before I finish, I would like to know what were the biggest difficulties that you went through in this process of change (including the adaptation of your wife, daughters, etc.).
Fernando Lima: Our life doesn’t change much. It changes for the family, without a doubt, we got jobs easily, our market lacks talent.
For everything else it is difficult, it starts with a new language if necessary, diploma recognition is another problem. The area can change much of what we have in Brazil for other countries. Undoubtedly, coming to another country without being in the technology area is starting from 0. If the profession is still relevant in this new place. So reinventing is undoubtedly the greatest difficulty.
Bruno César: Fernando, I want to thank you for your participation. I have always found your story incredible and I am very grateful that you share a little of your experience with us. It was a great pleasure to have you here answering so many questions! Is there anything else you would like to add before we close?
Fernando Lima: I wish the project every success, I see enormous potential here. I wish luck and that the walk is light in your career and I appreciate the opportunity to share a little of my history and the best luck in the world for you.
Bruno César: Thank you, Fernando. Since the day we met in Switzerland and I heard about its history, I was very eager to have the opportunity to share it. I am sure that your words will help countless people planning to work on the European continent. Thank you very much for the incredible interview.
Conclusion
I hope you enjoyed our fourth interview (of many) on our Talks program.
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If you have any suggestions (including subjects you would like to read about or possible candidates to be interviewed), feel free to send an email to sapsteps@sapsteps.com.
A big hug,
Bruno César
